I doubt, they have to provide you a copy of the credit score disclosure remember
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Was finishing up deal on my wife’s X2 last year. F&I guy slides Platinum, Gold, Silver service plans in front of me. I said “no”.
He then asks me, “why would you want to pay for brakes?” I LOL’d. I jotted some quick math down for him: $85/mo x 36 months = $3060. That’s a LOT of brakes.
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That’s what I thought too but my CU didn’t offer GAP if I didn’t finance thru them.
But I did that research before going in and I knew that I would have to buy it at F&I and was ready to negotiate as well.
Just have to be ready for the final negotiation.
Thanks @Fruju for such a detailed post.
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Concur…it’s also much easier to shop for cars when all the terms are essentially the same.
Just my two cents, but I just leased my third Subaru from the same dealer/salesperson. They are really straightforward…lady in finance remembered me from previous sale and didn’t even bother trying to sell me any garbage…I was in and out of finance in 10 minutes.
There is something to be said about having a long term relationship with a dealer/salesperson.
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I realized this back in 2011 when I was with my parents buying their 1st Cayenne. I asked the salesman what kind of car he drove. He said “An Acura CL.” I asked the F&I guy the same thing. He pointed to the 911 Turbo Cabriolet outside and said: “they give that to me as a demo.”
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Thanks for posting. Sorry you had to go through this, but now you know for next time. It is amazing how some of these dealers play with numbers. Enjoy your BMW!
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F&I is a promotion from sales. Often times they are nearly the highest paid people in the entire dealership (I’m friends with one in particular that was makes upwards of 30k / month at a Porsche dealership in SoCal). They’re so good at selling, they sell stuff that literally nobody wants or plans to buy.
This is a good thread for new people to leasing. While this particular F&I guy sounds especially sleazy, most operate in a similar fashion. Glad you were able to get out of it.
There’s a lot of value in some F&I products but markups are insane, so haggle like crazy if you want something.
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Unfortunately one purchase of an F&I product that is overpriced and unneeded probably negates any benefit for at least the next few vehicle purchases, that’s why I say avoid any of them. F&I is just a profit center for the sales dept, just say no and you’ll avoid the profit. I’m fine with these guys making money, I just get tired of the blatant lies and guilt tactics used, that and bumping rates based on lies. It’s the one thing I miss the least about the business.
Good read. Hard lessons! I would personally go to HQ and expect nothing but give the full story.
That’s actually what I’m thinking for my next car lease or purchase (which wouldn’t be for many yrs). For a car from an unreliable make (but a make that has good customer service), if I’m buying used or want to keep the car for a little beyond the standard warranty, I actually don’t think I’d mind buying some sort of extended warranty just for peace of mind… if the price of the warranty were good.
A bit off topic, but are there certain categories of F&I product that you think, in general, can be a good value?
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The whole premise sounds like an oxymoron.
You want to buy an unreliable car maker’s auto but want to keep the car longer by paying for a service/warranty contract with thousands of restrictions which no person ever recommends…
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And you felt the need to write a post that does nothing to move the conversation or discussion forward b/c…?
Sorry you feel that way but my post actually says that the premise of buying an unreliable car and paying more for a warranty contract doesn’t make sense.
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The payment you’re quoted is already padded by 5-15$/mo if sales did their job. If they didn’t and quoted you the actual payment and you bought no product, then you got the hard bump at the end. You could have got up and left but was it worth $360 over the life of the lease? Probably not.
F&I gets paid both on rate (how much they mark up financing) and on product (markup and penetration rate). They have to hit their numbers (different from sales) to max out their pay plans.
At cost? Most of it. Excess wear and tear (I got on my XC60 for $750 and it covers tires and breaks and I have a dog). Road hazard if you don’t have it elsewhere: I got for $150 on my WRX and I lost count of how many of the (10) tires I replaced that it paid for at $150 each, probably 4? Anything I had that was a turbo or a hybrid where the lease ran longer than the warranty, I added an extended warranty. Were not expensive and some I got prorated refunds on.
Lojack is a no. paint protection and etching are a no. Prepaid maintenance is usually a no on a lease (maybe MB at cost). Gap as mentioned can be found cheaper elsewhere if your lease doesn’t include it.
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EWAT can be super valuable with Volvo since it covers tires. That’s huge
And a 5K damage waiver
$750-800 over 3 years for that peace of mind is well worth it to many
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At $1000 or $1500 it’s a no, at $750 it was a resounding yes. What you were saying a few days ago about preferring to budget for these sorts of things than being surprised
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Interestingly, in my short experience of leasing 4-5 cars, I’ve never came across such sleazy F&I. My simple reply to each of their pitch: “C’mon, it’s a lease”, seemed to work every time. There were some bumps along the sale process, especially my first, but never in F&I.
Although my story wasn’t with BMW, I did have a “doh” moment last month at an Audi stealership on the west side of LA. I had an incredibly easy to do deal with the internet sales and fleet manager. She couldn’t have been nicer, or more accommodating. We did the entire deal via email/text and only 1 two minute phone to reconfirm the details of the Q5. 90 minutes later I got a message back that the deal was on. I made 1 small counter offer and we came to an agreement.
This was the first deal that I was able to do without having to go physically into the stealership to “test drive”, and get a quote. I made an appointment to meet the internet sales and fleet manager in person, see the actual vehicle, and then sign and take delivery for the Saturday after Black Friday.
I was warned by some trusted sources that this deal seemed too good to be true. At the initial, competing offer I was given at BH, my trusted source had told me- be sure what they are quoting is actually what you pay at the time of signing. My source said that if you were really able to get it at that price- take it. However, he was highly skeptical since their personal experience with their own customers at Calabasas had similar agressive quotes, but when they got to BH Finance, they were going to be charged the agreed upon DAS, then additional first month/fees that were not previously stated.
Since I pivoted away from BH to expand my search (they didn’t have the exact color combination I was looking for), SM not only had the exact color combination (thanks to www.audiusa.com/inventory site discovery), but they sweetened and made an even better deal!
I filled out my credit application the morning of the appt so that I could get pre-approval prior to arrival. Once I got the stealership, I met my internet sales and fleet manager in person for the first time and inspected the vehicle in person for the first time. All was good. I was thinking this has been too easy.
However, it was extremely busy day of doing deal so I ended up waiting ~ 50 minutes for a slot in Finance. Understandable. I was ok with that, but this is also where I let my guard down since everything had been so smooth and easy to deal with.
Once I was in the Finance office, the deal numbers were reviewed, and then, we started the signing. I was told that she had to collect the first months payment at the time of signing. I understood that since it was told to me (in writing too) that DAS ALWAYS included the first months payment. So that didn’t surprise me.
I gave my credit card and was given credit card charge to sign. It had been a long day and I didn’t hear anything different from I had agreed to. My downfall is that I didn’t closely inspect the actual number on the slip- I had a deal in place with all even numbers. ($2000 and $500 x 35 additional months).
We completed the signing and I went to take delivery of the car with the technology person. It was now dark and I was running a bit behind schedule to get to my next event.
As I pulled out onto Santa Monica Blvd and headed to the 405, I happened to glance at my iPhone to see what % rebate I was getting for using my Apple Card. (only 1%). However, this is when I noticed that I had been charged $2500, not $2000 as agreed upon.
I immediately called my internet sales and fleet manager and told her the situation. She told me not to worry, but since it was new closing time, she would talk the Finance person in the AM and get things straightened out even though it was her day off.
I texted her on Sunday to follow up. She talked to the Finance person, but Finance had said that it had been disclosed to me. Yes, she did say collect first months payment, but NO, I didn’t agree to it be on top of the DAS. [I do have to partly take blame that I let my guard down since I was not at BH and everything had been so easy up to this point.] Sales said she would follow up on Monday when she was back in the office and GM.
I emailed Finance, GM, and my internet sales and fleet manager what had happened and posted all of my text and email conversations on what our deal was. Only my sales person had responded. I was offered $500 in retail products. Pass. I just wanted my $500 back.
I also called Finance Sunday. No answer. Called again- picked up. Got “my phone has been ringing off the hook and it’s really busy- I will have to call you back later”. No call ever came.
On Monday, I follow up and had no communication directly from GM or Finance. Sales asks me to trust the process. [Still highly skeptical since once stealership has your $, we all know how difficult it would be to ever getting it back]. I was told they were trying to figure out what was the best way to refund the $. Credit card charge back or check.
I was told ~ 7-10 days afterwards that refund had been approved by GM. Contract had been sent to Audi FS in Michigan and they were still processing the end of the month deals.
Followed up periodically with my internet sales person, who never abandoned me. Strong props to Helen S. She even notified me when the check was physically mailed out by snail mail.
I’m happy to report that when I returned from my family Christmas trip, I received the full refund amount ~ 3.5 weeks.
Moral of the story- don’t drop your guard down at Finance. #TrustButAlwaysVerify
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Thank you for writing this. It’s a great reminder to always have your guard up with Finance. They make the most profit for the dealership, and they are good at what they do. Thankfully, I’ve only encountered a couple of aggressive or sneaky ones. I treat the F&I office like a deposition.
I have a simple line I repeat over and over again. Works for rental cars too. “Just the car please.” “How would you like…” - “just the car please.”
Be very concerned if the LH calc doesn’t match their numbers, or if you can’t deconstruct their deal. Walk out of necessary and find your salesperson. It’s also a good moment to collect yourself. Just like a deposition, you can always take a bathroom break.
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Exactly, walk out and make the sales manager sweat, ie he might lose the deal, the F&I shenanigans are real! This is some great advice!
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