I’d settle for that even if the rates stayed right where they are.
That would actually be preferable since cheap money would just cause more inflation.
It’s an M440, not an M4. And I can go to the dealership right now and look at a 2025 “loaded m440 for right around $70k. That’s 2,500 more than my car 4 years ago.
So yes, the price has increased barely 4%. According to Toyota, prices on their vehicles have gone up 19% in 7 years (2018 - 2025) so that’s about 2.5% per year. So, even if you use Toyota’s number you’re adding 10% in 4 years. Your car goes from 25,000 to 27,500. If you think that’s worth a lease payment that’s 40% more, then I don’t know what to tell you.
As for the example of other inflated goods, that’s not relevant. We’re not talking about the cost. We know the cost of vehicles new and used has gone up. We’re talking about the cost to lease said vehicle. For example, if you went to the grocery store and they told you that you could buy eggs for $6 a dozen (50% more than they used to be), but if you bought them on a credit card they now charge you $9/dozen, that wouldn’t fly.
Same goes for cars. People are obviously buying cars, but there is an extreme premium on leasing that did not exist previously. As my example for my car demonstrates, the price to buy the car with a loan moved a little over $100/month. But the difference to lease the car now is over $200 different.
I’m not expecting things to get cheaper, and I’m not trying to score a deal with a Lh score of 15 years anymore. I’m simply trying to understand that extremely skewed increase in leasing costs for ICE vehicles.
1 Like
That’s not what I’m saying, and you know that. I acknowledged an increase in the cost of cars, and even acknowledged that a “deal” now like isn’t the 1% it used to be, it might be more.
We are talking about the extremely skewed cost of leasing vs. ownership.
If what everyone here is saying would be true, then purchase prices on loans would be astronomically higher, but they aren’t. The delta between my lease payment and buying my can in 2020 was nearly $375/month.
It’s well less than that now, even on the same cost vehicle. A lease on my vehicle now even through a broker is $950 + tax + broker fee. In Virginia, where I bought my car, that’s another $100 per month. So we’re talking about a car that went up 5% tops, but a payment that went up 50%
Your house is an investment with likely appreciation and a much stricter constraint on supply. You cannot compare it to cars which roll off the assembly lines by the millions.
Additionally, your mortgage payment or rent have gone up proportionally to the cost of real estate, that is not what is occurring with leased vehicles.
1 Like
A 2020 440i (F3x) had a lot more incentives, a higher residual and generally lower rates going for it on top of a lower MSRP and average sale price.
These factors all compound into the lease price you see today.
1 Like
This is a good deal but a unicorn. Look at the rest of his cars. X7 for $1100 for a 40i and $1700 for a 60i. These were in the $700s a few years ago. Same thing with m340 now with similar payments of the old M3, X3M was also $600-$700/month. Now it’s $1000+
I’m not arguing that prices should go back to where they were, but it’s clear that the “deals” are still mainly on EVs, whether it’s because of demand or whatever but the fact is
EV: $100k iX is $600-$700/month.
Whereas in ICE land $80k X5 is $1000/month, and $100k X7 is $1300+/month
This is BMW example, but it’s the Same thing with Mercedes too
All the numbers you mentioned are either pre-tax with a high down or on loaners with tons of time on the books…
2 Likes
Hah, you have to go back further than this. I got a Highlander SE from Cody back in 2019 for $340 a month. That wasn’t a unicorn, just the standard offer
We also accept time machines in good working order as payment. 
1 Like
Yup I’m saying the same thing. The ICE car leases are quite high now with taxes and all the down payments rolled in. Almost double compared to what you can get on an iX
I’m not sure what you’re adding to the conversation or why you’re so confused.
You can’t use the “inflation” argument when I got a $105k vehicle 6 months ago for $800/mo.
You mentioned incentives, discounts, etc. and that is true…so the question is why do none of those things currently exist on ICE vehicles. Even if I didn’t get the $7500 rebate, my IX still would have been WAY cheaper than any other comparable SUV…why?
You’re arguing about time machines and grocery stores when the fact is that you can still get expensive cars for very little monthly, they are just all EVs
2 Likes
Easy. Did you notice the rate when you picked up your iX?
EV’s are what’s being subvented both with rebates and rate buy down right now to boost sales while most ICE are devoid of heavy rebates and interest is passed through at market rate or only lightly bought down.
All the pieces matter, my friend.
4 Likes
B/c car makes over-estimated EV adoption and are now desperate to get rid of aged inventory?
2 Likes
Yep.
Get over it as prices will not go back down - ever.
See here-
and here-
My guy, I think you need to get your facts straight. I provided links to the pricing below. The 2 door is more expensive than the 4-door, so I’m just picking the 4D.
2025 M440i Gran Coupe Sedan 4D starts at $62,600 (excluding destination)
2020 M440i Gran Coupe Sedan 4D started at $51,150 (excl destination)
That’s a 22% increase on just the starting MSRP price without the annoying destination to contend with. I don’t know how you’re concocting your $2,500 price delta, but it seems you’re not forming a fair comparison with regard to option load.
2 Likes
What in the world are you taking about?
I have a 2021 bmw m440 coupe.
2021 BMW 4-Series Review, Pricing, and Specs 59,500 msrp
A 2024 is here:
2024 BMW 4-Series Review, Pricing, and Specs 62,500 msrp
Exactly $3000 more
You’re comparing a 2021 xDrive to newer RWD coupe. In 2021 it was xDrive only. 2022 onward has the base price as RWD. xDrive isn’t free… if you want to normalize your comparison do xDrive vs xDrive.
Plus you’re hopping back and forth between model years which is inconsistent.
Let’s stick with the 2021 vs 2025 model years since you previously leased a 2021 model year (I think) and you were so confident in “I can go to the dealership right now and look at a 2025 loaded m440 (I guess this is a xDrive Coupe?) for right around $70k”
You should also look at MSRP excluding destination. This is typically published by BMWUSA and dealerships flying BMW trademarks since the values are carefully reviewed by legal/compliance folks. I don’t think C&D cares if they put some bad data out there.
The corporate sites strip out destination charges to avoid any shenanigans with that particular component of the price that can actually differ between regions. And destination has nothing to do with the product, and everything to do with logistics, so stripping it out is fair and a standard practice when a corporate finance person assesses vehicle margins.
2025 M440i xDrive 2Dr excluding destination: $66,250
2021 M440i xDrive 2Dr excluding destination: $58,500
List price difference $7,750 (13.25%)
Anyway, stop looking in the rear view mirror and go try to hack a new deal. They’re out there. But don’t keep painting the past all rosy either… pricing has increased a bunch, interest rates are higher, and captive financing arms at the German automakers aren’t willing to take a loss per unit by propping up the residual.
If you don’t believe me about the whole residual prop-up, you may want to send a DM to @themachine to help you learn about those historical residual subventions that aren’t around today on ICE.
Edit: I’ll let @IAC chime in on whether or not a “loaded” 2025 M440i xDrive 2 door can be had for $70k.
2 Likes
You are the first to actually point out exactly what i have been saying, I think you’re the only one finally to show some understanding of how insane leasing has become on the gas and hybrid cars…like you mentioned you totally understand where the price of goods and services have gone and understand paying more, but with leasing it seems to be an entire difference story.
You mentioned toyota, i actually was at the dealership a few weeks back just to see what numbers i could gather since getting a response through email and phone is literally non existence these days, and noticed the same thing, prices of the vehicle up on aversge 2 to 4% a year which is normal, i get it, but then working the numbers on a lease, well those numbers from just 4 years ago are up 50% 60% 70 %100 %150% …The same lease i had from 2018 which cost me $300 is now over $600! A 100%++ increase, so what i did was i bought my lease out,…it wss the only way to be financially savvy and keep the vehicle until prices of leasing become.more doable. Look i could understand paying for that same lease today, $400 to $450! But $600, $650 even $700 for a toyota or honda is absolutely ridiculous. The corolla LE on toyotas site, the national deal is $4000 due at signing and 229 a month.Do NOT forget fees, taxes doc fees, fees fees fees and more fees and all the other fees not included in the due at signing and you are looking at a no frills base toyota LE for OVER $400 a month!!! $400 for a corolla!!!
I understand the increase in cost of everything we have seen but until consumers back off and say enough is enough the corporations are going to keep selling everything they possibly can at premium prices.
Recession???
That word has been thrown around for 5+ years now and still no Recession, powell is doing anything he can possible to keep that Recession away from the economy, however what most dont realize is that recessions are actually healthy for an economy, too many fear recessions so instead of entering into one they continously print more money and prop up the economy, hence why we have inflation and pricing of leased cars at astronomical levels we have never seen before. This can only go on for so long until the financial markets finally break, but that too can take a long time.
1 Like
The rates clearly are not as favorable, overall incentives have decreased , as have discounts. Literally everything is working against you from an affordability standpoint. OEMs aren’t puking out as many cars as possible and then having to heavily discount them to move metal, they are only doing that with EVs now.
It’s also somewhat apples to oranges as quite a few standard features from previous generations have been stripped out , which falsely makes it look like the MSRPs haven’t really moved. Like passenger lumbar for example.
2 Likes