True. Like @rich said, using it will be an extra cost, but it’s meant to alleviate range anxiety. Most of us won’t use it regularly anyway, but it’s nice to have them available if you really need it.
@Envador thanks for all that info about hydrogen cars! When I mentioned just putting water in the tank, I was referring to the article that @Stark sent about the solar powered hydrogen generating technology of the future. I assume theoretically if you had a technology like that in your car, you’d just have to put some water in your tank and it would create hydrogen out of it. Personally I think it’s more likely we’d see a battery capable of charging fully in minutes before we saw something like that. I do appreciate your comparison of cost and time. I agree with all your points, but you still have the concern of range anxiety with the electric car vs the hydrogen, but that would assume that hydrogen was as readily available as regular gas which it’s not. Honestly, I don’t even know if there are as many hydrogen fill up stations across the country as there are supercharging stations, so that argument may be meaningless.
i would assume the solar generated hydrogen would be used to refuel your hydrogen car from home.
http://www.horizonfuelcell.com/i-h2go-toy-car
All that is needed for hydrogen fuel cells to overtake battery electrics is a change in the laws of chemistry and physics.
(looks at toy section of site above) - WHAT IS THAT??? A FUEL CELL FOR ANTS!!!
But in seriousness… Converting water → Hydrogen from any power source is not a 1-to-1 Energy exchange. In layman’s terms:
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100 units of solar energy → 65 units of Hydrogen energy. (it took energy to make the H).
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100 units of solar energy → 85+ units of battery energy. (charging a battery is also not 100% efficient)
Very rough example there, but I hope it illustrates the inefficiency of using solar to create Hydrogen as a way to store energy.
You can argue that “they” will make Hydrogen production more efficient over time. To that I would reply that “they” will also make battery storage and charging efficiency better over time too. It’s just that Hydrogen has already started the race with a handicap and it’s too optimistic to think H-production will catch up to the simpler equation of solar-direct-to-battery.
Source: https://tonyseba.com/toyota-vs-tesla-can-hydrogen-fuel-cell-vehicles-compete-with-electric-vehicles/
Interesting points. I’m just hoping “they” figure out how to charge batteries faster as soon as possible.
Yes but toyota offers free hydrogen to those who purchase a mirai
Yes but if we are talking about an alternative to gas for environmental reasons, batteries don’t cut it. It takes an immense amount of energy to make a lithium ion battery.
Good you brought that up! When shopping for our other car, the family/range vehicle, the Mirai was on my list. The free fuel offer (for 3 years or $15k maximum) was tempting. And a 3 year limit was definitely going to put this car in the leasehackr runnings for us. Putting on our leasehackr hat, I calculated the Mirai’s not-yet-hacked effective price of $349/mo, 36mos, 12kmi/year $2499 down minus $5000 CA rebate that averages out to $279/mo. (not bad, but tax brings it up to ~$300/mo)
Chevy Volt - My alternate range choice to the Mirai:
For a good leasehackr-worthy deal you want to put $0 down (in case your car gets totaled in an accident). I ended up going with a Chevy Volt for $266/mo & $0 down. That price already includes tax. The Volt was the best fit for our household.
Owning the Volt:
I’ve used 1 tank of gas on the Volt in the 2 months I’ve owned it so far driving 1500 miles. A Mirai gets 312 mi on a tank of Hydrogen. That would have been 6 visits (1 hr?) to the Hydrogen station versus my single $30 visit (10 min?) to the gas station thus far. Time is money. And time becomes immensely more important when you’ve got your family in the car on your way to wherever.
On the comparison of dollars-to-own-and-operate, I think the Chevy Volt wins:
- Lease Cost + Fuel Cost ($266/mo + $15elec/mo +$15gas/mo) vs ($300/mo + $0fuel/mo)
- Fuel Time (5 minutes/mo vs 25 minutes/mo)
I highly recommend the Volt as a household range vehicle. (with a strong, leasehackr’d deal of course!)
That’s another good discussion point… A 2015 report “Cleaner Cars From Cradle to Grave” found that making a 250-mile range EV required up to 68% more energy to produce than a gasoline car. However, the same report goes on to say that extra emissions “debt” is made up over the life of these cars’ existence. That’s because you have to consider energy/emissions for both making and driving the cars over their lifespans. Both lifespans compared, the gas car creates 2x the emissions of an EV car.
It’s like if we’re making a nice piece of furniture… We make our table with solid wood versus particle board. The solid wood table “costs” more to make, but is a way better choice of materials.
You are only considering when driving short ranges. If you were to go on a 200 mile drive, which car would get there faster?
Not Tesla, but electric
Tesla does discount - significantly at times.
Definitely – That’s an important distinction you’re calling out.
I had to consider both short trips (less than 80-miles) and long trips (more than 300-miles) when deciding what car(s) to get. I settled upon the Spark EV with an 80-mile range as a Monday-to-Friday commuter car and then a Chevy Volt as our family weekend car. So to answer your question, the Volt would get us there and back on one tank without having to stop for gas (it gets 400+ miles of range with electric plus a full gas tank).
I’m saying that you must use the right tool for the job - Take the right car for the journey. For example, none of the cars we’re talking about in this thread would be worthy of off-roading in the World Rally Championships and I don’t see anyone asking which of our grocery getter cars could complete The 2017 Mongol Rally charity run!
Ahh, yes, that’s one important thing I would like to talk about: Road Trips:
When road tripping to anything further than a 5-hour drive, I suggest you rent a car. Head over to priceline, shop around and you can do like we did and score a 1 week rental for a Cadillac XTS for about $20 per day. You get to take your road trip in a nice car and also don’t have to worry about wear and tear on your own car. We rented one to our Zion National park road trip and it was a dream to drive.
I’m going to get the Tesla Model 3 some day. It might not be until 2019 that our budget would allow it, but, hey, some day! Even with a Model 3 that could cover a road trip like that, I would still prefer to rent a car to do it just for the peace of mind.
I feel the same way about Road trips. If I’m going to go more than a few hundred miles a day, I’ll probably just rent a car. No sense in putting all that mileage on my car. A lot of times I can even get an SUV for pretty cheap. I still want a 300+ mile Model 3, but I drive from San Diego to OC/LA pretty regularly, and would like to be able to drive both ways and still not have any range anxiety. Like Envador said, it really depends on your specific need. For some a 60 mile leaf is more than enough, for others, 300 miles won’t be sufficient. I’m also not ready to completely ditch having a gas (or at least hybrid) car.
In regards to the fuel cell cars, I looked up where the hydrogen fueling stations are (http://cafcp.org/stationmap) and even in California where I would expect them to be most prevalent, there are very few outside of Los Angeles/OC. San Diego literally has ONE. Super charging stations are already so much more available.
If i’m driving far I usually rent a luxury from national ($40 a day with corporate code.) Normally, end up with a Suburban, QX80, Caddy Escalade or if its a bad day an xts. This is because I don’t like putting a lot of mileage on my cars even though they are bought. '02 sc430 has 32k miles
40 bucks! Not bad at all for an escalade! My company has a deal worked out with Avis/Budget for full size for $32/day, but they’ll usually give an SUV if they have one available. I agree that renting is the best way if you’re going on a long road trip.
I like all this discussion on alternative fuel vehicles. Most points have been brought up already, but I just want to chime in on the hydrogen vs electric debate. My opinion (and hope) is that electric will win out.
- I think electric simply has more “momentum” right now. The EV charging infrastructure is growing (definitely not where it needs to be yet) and for the most part you hear more about government/political support for electric. Hydrogen charging stations are still pretty sparse (probably same state EV infrastructure was in 10 years ago)
- I don’t know much about the science for these fuels, but I know EV battery technology is evolving rapidly, meaning more range from less (smaller) cells. This should bring enough range for the mainstream (although my personal view is that ~200 range is enough for majority people). What is the case with hydrogen? I know there is only a finite amount of energy stored in hydrogen fuel, but are they able to increase the storage density (in turn requiring a higher pressure tank = more danger?) any more?
- There’s a lot of counter-argument against eco friendliness of creating lithium ion batteries and in a way there’s probably a case for it. But the infrastructure for hydrogen station is too similar to traditional gas. They still need to generate it somewhere and then have truckers truck it in (usually). Whereas EV charging stations don’t require this refueling process. The less tankers there are on the road is a win for me. Also, as someone else mentioned above, until you actually own an EV (I don’t yet) and experience the freedom of not having to stop into a gas (or hydrogen) station, it’s a underappreciated benefit. This is actually a big win for me. Also mentioned before, there is a difference between the time it takes to refuel (recharge) and how much of YOUR time it takes to perform those tasks.
- Yes, right now leased hydrogen cars (mirai) come with free 3 year of fuel. But after that? Hydrogen fuel is ridiculously expensive. Maybe the economy of scale can bring that cost down in the future if it gets big, but I can’t say.
- I think the reason hydrogen cars are mostly pursued by the Japanese brands is because the Japanese government is subsidizing a lot of the hydrogen infrastructure in Japan.
I think conceptually the reason hydrogen makes sense is different than what you are suggesting are its faults. Solar panels can create hydrogen via water, in concept, and there is then zero emission other than oxygen/water vapor once process/use is complete. Range and fill time would never be an issue if current gasoline stations became hydrogen stations. Hydrogen is the most dense form of energy, I believe, compared to a battery. Frankly, I don’t find stopping at a gas station a couple times a month inconvenient at all.
I agree with you in theory, but the biggest issue with this is that not only do we not currently have a significant infrastructure of hydrogen stations (even in Los Angeles it’s limited) but those stations aren’t producing their own hydrogen on site with solar power.
Like I said, I used to be super excited with the idea of fuel cell cars, but with the crazy advancements in battery tech, I just don’t see it being viable or catching up with electric charging infrastructure.
$40/day for the rental, but then how much a day do you spend on gas for these monster SUVs?