You’ve got to admit though, it’s a very profound thought process.
1 Like
Isn’t not having any financial or emotional involvement in the transaction exactly why this independent perspective is not warped or biased?
Such as?
You’re typing hundreds of words in ever expanding circles but I still don’t get your point. What is this about? That many people suck? Yeah, we already knew that 
4 Likes
And on that, we agree. There are multiple approaches to get past the BS. Going through a broker is one, particularly for people that prioritize minimizing effort over minimizing cost. Educating consumers so that they can go in prepared and be as effective and efficient as possible is a different path to the same goal, particularly for those that prioritize minimizing cost over minimizing effort.
The only significant difference between what you’re trying to do and what we try to do is you get paid for your time.
The bot answers come out because the answer to “is this a good deal?” is usually dependent on a lot of missing information, which isn’t the simple yes or no someone wants, and the bot answer is a more polite, specific way of saying “we’re here to help you learn, not do your work for you”.
1 Like
My point is: in this increasingly digital and non-personal world, is to remind people that there is a very human element to the car buying experience.
Some of the language and tone I see here, gets hyperbolized, and People gird their loins and get the dealer in their crosshairs as the enemy, I guess, is what I’m trying to take a stand against.
I read what @mllcb42 is saying about Games and Battles, and I understand the hyperbole, but I’m here to report that people read that sort of thing and take it more literally than he’d expect. I see customers that are PREPARING FOR WAR when they go to buy a car, and that’s what I’m trying to help prevent.
I think combative language and tone is hurting things, even if the intention by the poster is more civil.
Was this all just an ad?
I might not agree with everything and sometimes mods might come off as aggressive towards dealers/brokers or new members, but they are doing this on their free time with no immediate financial incentives (hopefully they can save some $ with a unicron deal for themselves).
But I agree with 99% of what @mllcb42 says. It is okay for dealers to try and maximize profit and customers to minimize costs when both parties act ethically and in good faith.
I also never stepped foot in a dealer until I started working for one (my parents bought lightly used cars and kept them forever), so I did not have any expectations of behavior from either party. It was interesting seeing how guarded people were when I first started since green-pea me was clueless on everything.
4 Likes
Buying a car is not like going to McDonalds.
EVERYONE knows car prices are negotiable.
Hence EVERYONE is always ready for battle.
I don’t seeing that change in the near future.
Once you find a good broker though, they can do the battle for you, the problem is, is that broker good at battling or just taking your fees?
Hence another battle.
1 Like
Just avoid all the battles and pay MSRP. Plus don’t forget the buy the 72mo/150k extended warranty for your 36mo lease.
6 Likes
How is this any different than the last 50-100 years of car buying?
I can’t recall off the top of my head trusteds or anyone else advocating to come at car salesmen with pitch forks just because they sent a “high” quote. I think the predominant view on here is that if the dealer won’t do the deal that you want, move on and stop wasting everyone’s time. There’s nothing wrong with a salesman quoting a high price, or a customer asking for a low price - as long as the negotiation is done in good faith and ethically. Your points about dealers or consumers acting in bad faith are agreed with by 99.99% on here which is why in the past we have deleted the threads of those who acted in completely unethical or underhanded ways.
Honestly this feels like a straw man argument created to suit a point. That point (that I still don’t understand) might be valid - but implying that LH or trusteds are ‘to blame’ for creating these contentious car buying negotiations, and that this is suddenly a new thing, is more than a little bit nuts IMO’.
2 Likes
That’s the thing… we’re arguing the same thing. There is a human element in the car buying process and that’s what drives people to see an adversarial relationship and determine it is bad. People take adversarial actions personally, see it as an insult, and the battle is born.
My whole point is that recognizing that the interaction is adversarial and that it’s ok to be is fine; one just needs to be cognizant of that in how they choose their approach. One can be cordial, polite, personable, etc., and still have conflicting priorities. That’s fine.
For most uninformed consumers, part of the reason for the view the transaction as a battle is that they’re going into an environment that is designed against them without the confidence to operate in that. They know they’re being manipulated, but don’t have the experience to recognize how. Of course one would feel attacked in that emotional state.
If one instead views the negotiations as a game that they can prepare for, that inherently states that the interaction isn’t a personal attack; just two “teams” trying to win the match. You can prepare, strategize, and enter into that interaction with a mindset that keeps things from turning to a battle.
Whenever someone asks me how to get a good deal on a vehicle, I give the same answer “do your homework, be confident in your targets, understand your value to the dealer is to be the quickest, easiest transaction they’ve ever had. If you expect them to make a minimal amount of money, you better make them burn the least amount of calories as you possibly can to get there.” That isn’t “go in and waste people’s time, holding their livelihood hostage” or “be the biggest asshole in the room so they do everything they can to get you out the door.”
As a broker, you’re offering the dealer the same value; the easiest, quickest transaction possible. The difference here is only if the consumer would rather pay for you to do their homework and your confidence or if the consumer would rather do it themself.
1 Like
I’d be cool paying MSRP if Dealers are cool with not marking up performance and niche cars up by 40k, 50k, 60k or even 100k.
1 Like
Deal. Type R’s at MSRP and all other Hondas at MSRP.
7 Likes
That actually sounds fair to me. Takes the guess work out of it.
Not to blame! Nobody here created this situation. I’m just trying to stop this inefficient behavior from the past from plaguging the future. Encouraging the leaders here to actively avoid confrontational language is just one small step we can take. Actively take the high-road to reduce chances of Readers encountering conflict in the future.
Now you can scroll down and compare everyone’s prices, and prices will be challenged by other forum users if they’re not right or low enough.
You don’t have to go rounds when you can click between 5 spreadsheets in 10 minutes and have your answer without talking to anyone.
The transparent advertising on here allows for a better way, I’m just asking for a conscious effort to let it happen. LH provides all the tools to help make the battle go away. We just need to up the ante and encourage customers seek transparency, before seeking the “BEST DEAL”
In my experience, I have been able to get significantly better deals that what any brokers are offering on multiple vehicles, and every time I have done so in a way that was respectful, efficient, and cordial with the dealer staff that I’ve worked with.
I have also done deals with multiple brokers here because I couldn’t beat their numbers.
The point is, the marketplace listings are a great option for those that want to minimize their effort in getting a good deal, but they are not always the best deal to be had. After all, there’s enough money in the transaction for all of those broker businesses to continue to operate.
I think there’s merit in some of what you’re saying, but a lot of your posts in this thread really seem like they’re saying “hey people trying to teach consumers how to be independently effective, stop doing that. Instead, get out of the way so I can charge them for my services. By telling them they can do it themselves, you’re just being an ass.”
I suspect/hope that your intent here is a lot more nuanced than that, but that’s how it’s coming across.
1 Like
Please provide examples of the ax that you have to grind regarding ‘confrontational language’, ‘bad advice’, etc.
These are the assertions that I’m taking issue with. I at least skim >50% of the threads on LH and I can’t recall any trusteds or other longtime members encouraging someone else to act in the ways that you are describing. I think everyone here would agree that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar, and I doubt anybody would support acting in a rude, confrontational or unethical manner. Or is your point that everyone should use a broker service for their next new vehicle transaction?
1 Like
I suspect that is in reference to my discussion of the negotiations being a game/battle.
Chris, I was referring to Matt’s points about “war” and “games” as being a bit of hyperbole.
But I will take the prompt, and suggest that your advice here regarding use of a fake email specifically for submitting leads, is the foil behavior of dealerships that don’t send out comprehensible, complete, or accurate quotes.
For example, here’s a post I found complaining about the same thing, from the opposite perspective, https://www.reddit.com/r/askcarsales/comments/6kgx1o/salesman_why_do_customers_submit_leads_but_never/
I’m not saying you’re in the wrong for doing what you’re doing, I’m just saying that there are salespeople on the other end of the dead leads feel frustration, and also post about it.
A customer ghosting a lowball lead, or a dealer sending unhelpful replies to leads, are foil behaviors. The customer and/or the dealer is choosing an “indirect” path of communicating the deal price.
2 Likes
Seriously? That’s the best example of giving bad advice, being confrontational, encouraging trolling, etc? C’mon man.
You totally missed my point from October 2019 (what year is it again?). I’m not sure what you think a “fake email” means, but it’s probably not what you think. To me it means an email that is not my primary account that I will only use for one single attempt at a hack that I believe is doable but extremely aggressive. I will send dealers one by one an offer that I’m hoping is going to be shot down 19/20 times, so that 1/20 times it isn’t. It’s a simple yes or no to a set of terms. And if they say yes, that I’ll call them to give them my CC# for a deposit.
Sounds like the least frustrating thing ever to me, and the total opposite of the things you’re insinuating in this thread. I’m a sales manager for a tier one auto supplier with a very large book of business and a lot of customers including all of the OE’s. I have used the exact same strategy professionally many times with suppliers of mine and had great success. Takes all of the BS and guesswork out.
Also, you excluded the context, which makes the comment much more clear:
Yes, but there’s also an example of a Trusted Hackr in that another thread telling a poster not be a d*ck by reneging on a fair deal for which the poster had already put down a deposit. And that (posters saying that one should not back out of a fair deal negotiated in good faith) actually happens a lot, IMHO.
I don’t know if this general tit-for-tat is going anywhere, TBH. Yes, the car buying experience largely stinks. And, TBH, it’s b/c people on both side largely stink. We all (and I really mean everyone, not just the people in this forum) create the world in which we live. If the car-buying experience in the US is terrible, it’s b/c we created that system and continue to get something from that system.
Just my own $0.02.
2 Likes