# Off Topic Landfill **URL:** \ **Category:** Off-Ramp\ **Created:** [April 3, 2018, 5:38pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487 "2018-04-03T17:38:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 345
**Author:** ![Peter8](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/peter8/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Peter8](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Peter8)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:23pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7263 "2019-11-04T21:23:09Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/148): > > MSRP is a joke today and everyone knows it. Except for Tesla. Not being able to negotiate a dime with them is a feature, not a bug. If I negotiate with BMW, I have no idea if what I paid was too high or if the next guy got thousands less because he was a better negotiator. I have no idea if the dealer marked up hidden fees that could have been taken off if I just asked Why are you so okay with Tesla profiting off you but no other brand? What makes it okay for them to charge 120k for their car for example and no one gives them any pushback? Am I missing something here? > [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/148): > > As far as dealers now being ethical: yes, some are. Maybe many are. But the four-square deal sheet still gets used way too much for you to be able to make a blanket claim like that. “Come on down and lets talk” gets used way too much for you to make a blanket claim like that. Shady sales about still. There’s less people using four squares than there are using them. I’m not the biggest fan of the “come on down” stuff either, but you ever thought that they might be asking you to come in because they don’t want you to shop their number all over the world just to find 1 dealer that beats it by 5 bucks? > [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/151): > > You’re suggesting that one magically come up with a price that they feel they’re comfortable with while ignoring everything that determines what that price actually should be. If you’re coming up with a price while ignoring all the elements that determine it, you’re just pulling stuff out of thin air. Yeah cuz there aren’t all sorts of lease specials all over the web and brokers posting deals on IG for you to at least get an idea of what they lease for. ---
**Author:** ![jon1](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/forum.leasehackr.com/jon1/32/112430_2.png) [@jon1](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/jon1)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7264 "2019-11-04T21:26:39Z")
Peter, this is how business works. Sorry if this is new to you. If you are having trouble making profit, thats on you, not the consumer. Companies go bankrupt all the time. The issue with car dealers is that we as consumers want to compare prices, which annoyingly is hard to do. The best consumer experience would be to post your best deal online for a given car, which is what Tesla does. But since dealers try to eke every last cent out of everyone, we try to do the same to you. Can you imagine going into Best Buy looking for an iPod, and the salesman tells you he doesn’t want to give you a price if you are going to comparison shop? ---
**Author:** ![mllcb42](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mllcb42/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mllcb42](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mllcb42)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:26pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7265 "2019-11-04T21:26:59Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/153): > > I’m not the biggest fan of the “come on down” stuff either, but you ever thought that they might be asking you to come in because they don’t want you to shop their number all over the world just to find 1 dealer that beats it by 5 bucks? I have never had a dealer that pulls that come on down BS get anywhere near the number that I could get elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![mllcb42](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mllcb42/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mllcb42](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mllcb42)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:29pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7266 "2019-11-04T21:29:59Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/153): > > Yeah cuz there aren’t all sorts of lease specials all over the web and brokers posting deals on IG for you to at least get an idea of what they lease for. Advertised lease specials are rarely anywhere near a good deal. Broker deals can vary wildly. I’ve sent friends to brokers because the broker was able to beat anything I could get by $50+ a month. I’ve also negotiated my own deal on vehicles where all the brokers I talked to couldn’t get within several k of the selling price. I knew where I stood in both of those cases because I was able to determine what a realistic monthly I could achieve was, based on silly details like the RV, MF, incentives, etc. None of that was based on what number gave me warm fuzzy feelings, but on actual math. ---
**Author:** ![mountain-lion](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mountain-lion/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mountain-lion](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mountain-lion)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7267 "2019-11-04T21:35:43Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/153): > > Why are you so okay with Tesla profiting off you but no other brand? What makes it okay for them to charge 120k for their car for example and no one gives them any pushback? Am I missing something here? Yes. You are missing so many things it makes me wonder if we are able to have a productive conversation at all. I don’t give a flying flip how much or how little any brands profit off me. It simply does not come into my calculation. I care about getting the best deal for myself, and I trust that a company won’t sign if the deal doesn’t make sense for them. I trust them to look out for their own interests. The problem is that I never, ever know that if I just ground a bit more, just went to a dealer another ten miles away, just held out to the end of the month, just asked to remove that fee or just have been a bigger asshole, I could have done better. Actually, I don’t worry about that too much either, because I’m a pretty good negotiator, but I hate seeing my friends who aren’t good negotiators go in. Because you know the dealers are giving other people better deals, simply because they are willing to sit and grind for an hour. With Tesla, I know, you know, and everyone knows they got the best deal available. End of story. For anything but cars, I can cross shop dozens of stores on line to save five bucks on whatever purchase I want. It is simple. I don’t understand why you think cars should be any different. ---
**Author:** ![Peter8](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/peter8/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Peter8](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Peter8)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:41pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7268 "2019-11-04T21:41:55Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/154): > > Peter, this is how business works. Sorry if this is new to you. If you are having trouble making profit, thats on you, not the consumer. Companies go bankrupt all the time. > [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/139): > > I know that this is the nature of the business now and it is what it is, but regardless…what you consider this ethical? The argument isn’t about what you can or can’t do. It’s about morality. > [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/154): > > The issue with car dealers is that we as consumers want to compare prices, which annoyingly is hard to do. The best consumer experience would be to post your best deal online for a given car, which is what Tesla does. But since dealers try to eke every last cent out of everyone, we try to do the same to you. Tesla doesn’t have a best deal, they only have 1 deal and it’s take it or leave it. I find irony in your argument favoring Tesla when they don’t discount anything, meanwhile getting on dealers for not discounting enough. > [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/154): > > Can you imagine going into Best Buy looking for an iPod, and the salesman tells you he doesn’t want to give you a price if you are going to comparison shop? Can you imagine being a salesman at best buy and you tell them the ipad he’s looking at is $500 and he then tells you it should be $200. ---
**Author:** ![mllcb42](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mllcb42/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mllcb42](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mllcb42)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:44pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7269 "2019-11-04T21:44:43Z")
> [@Unicorn etron. Please be ethical and don’t share my emails or texts with other dealers . Let them give you a price](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/unicorn-etron-please-be-ethical-and-don-t-share-my-emails-or-texts-with-other-dealers-let-them-give-you-a-price/183673/158): > > Can you imagine being a salesman at best buy and you tell them the ipad he’s looking at is $500 and he then tells you it should be $200. Fortunately, bestbuy will price match, so when you show him someone else selling it for $200 that’s a legitimate source, they’ll only charge you $200. ---
**Author:** ![jon1](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/forum.leasehackr.com/jon1/32/112430_2.png) [@jon1](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/jon1)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:48pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7271 "2019-11-04T21:48:59Z")
When dealers attack customers, the customers will fight back. ---
**Author:** ![mountain-lion](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mountain-lion/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mountain-lion](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mountain-lion)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7272 "2019-11-04T21:51:37Z")
Could we get the reference to ethics removed from the post title then? ---
**Author:** ![28firefighter](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/28firefighter/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@28firefighter](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/28firefighter)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 9:53pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7273 "2019-11-04T21:53:33Z")
If you have further questions or concerns, please follow-up off this thread via PM to myself or the trusted hackrs group. ---
**Author:** ![Peter8](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/peter8/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Peter8](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Peter8)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 10:06pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7274 "2019-11-04T22:06:37Z")
> [@mountain-lion](#): > > Yes. You are missing so many things it makes me wonder if we are able to have a productive conversation at all. I’m not missing anything, you just fail to see things objectively, that’s why this conversation cannot be productive. > [@mountain-lion](#): > > The problem is that I never, ever know that if I just ground a bit more, just went to a dealer another ten miles away, just held out to the end of the month, just asked to remove that fee or just have been a bigger asshole, I could have done better. Actually, I don’t worry about that too much either, because I’m a pretty good negotiator, but I hate seeing my friends who aren’t good negotiators go in. Because you know the dealers are giving other people better deals, simply because they are willing to sit and grind for an hour. With Tesla, I know, you know, and everyone knows they got the best deal available. End of story. Tesla owns Tesla. They decide the price, what they say is what you do. All other brands are owned by different ownership, hence why you even have the ability to negotiate in the first place. They give you a free market in order to enjoy a discount and you take it as they’re screwing you over. Are you suggesting you would prefer all dealers get together and decide nobody is discounting anything, and everyone has to pay full sticker price? Would that make it easier for you? ---
**Author:** ![Peter8](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/peter8/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Peter8](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Peter8)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 10:10pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7275 "2019-11-04T22:10:12Z")
> [@mllcb42](#): > > Advertised lease specials are rarely anywhere near a good deal. Broker deals can vary wildly. I’ve sent friends to brokers because the broker was able to beat anything I could get by $50+ a month. I’ve also negotiated my own deal on vehicles where all the brokers I talked to couldn’t get within several k of the selling price. I knew where I stood in both of those cases because I was able to determine what a realistic monthly I could achieve was, based on silly details like the RV, MF, incentives, etc. None of that was based on what number gave me warm fuzzy feelings, but on actual math. Advertised lease specials are not amazing deals nor rip off deals. They’re most of the time just invoice deals, but they’ do exactly what I said, give you an idea. You really think you need MF and Residual for a good deal? ---
**Author:** ![mllcb42](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mllcb42/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mllcb42](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mllcb42)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 10:12pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7276 "2019-11-04T22:12:18Z")
> [@Peter8](#): > > You really think you need MF and Residual for a good deal? How else am I supposed to know if it’s a good deal? Take your word for it? ---
**Author:** ![mountain-lion](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/mountain-lion/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@mountain-lion](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/mountain-lion)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 10:13pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7277 "2019-11-04T22:13:51Z")
Wow, I’m not seeing things objectively? Economists almost universally agree that the current state-level franchise laws that protect dealers and therefore enforce this absurd sales system are bad for consumers. Really bad. > **[Markets: State Franchise Laws, Dealer Terminations, and the Auto Crisis -...](https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257%2Fjep.24.3.233)** > > (Summer 2010) - In fall 2008, General Motors and Chrysler were both on the brink of bankruptcy, and Ford was not far behind. As the government stepped in and restructuring began, GM and Chrysler announced their plan to terminate about 2,200... > **[Episode 435: Why Buying A Car Is So Awful](https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2013/02/12/171814201/episode-435-why-buying-a-car-is-so-awful)** > > Why millions of Americans still haggle with car dealers in person, one brand at a time. > [@Peter8](#): > > Are you suggesting you would prefer all dealers get together and decide nobody is discounting anything, and everyone has to pay full sticker price? Would that make it easier for you? I know this is hard to believe, but this works incredibly well for every other consumer product. So yes, I would. I would also accept “advertised price is what you get without additional negotiation” as being perfectly fine too. The assumption you are making is that the sticker price would be too high for me. But we all know that if the manufacturers artificially inflate MSRP. If it was what you see is what you get, that price would fall to the market clearing price. The burden is on you to show how automobile sales are so different from the rest of the market as to justify the absurd way cars are sold. Very few other markets need state-level dealership laws to protect them. Economists almost universally agree that a system more like normal consumer goods would benefit consumers. ---
**Author:** ![zzq](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/forum.leasehackr.com/zzq/32/38936_2.png) [@zzq](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/zzq)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 6:15pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7278 "2019-11-04T18:15:40Z")
Nov deal details, please? ---
**Author:** ![Apl789](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/apl789/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@Apl789](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Apl789)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 7:51pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7279 "2019-11-04T19:51:33Z")
Looking for an X3 lease, can you send me the spreadsheet? ---
**Author:** ![G4852](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/g4852/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@G4852](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/G4852)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2019, 4:46pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7280 "2019-11-04T16:46:33Z")
Did you find out how to post and can you please let me know? Thank you so so much! ---
**Author:** ![RIOGoose](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/letter_avatar/riogoose/32/5_5575768a8748004e209b776fc1b2916d.png) [@RIOGoose](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/RIOGoose)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:32am UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7281 "2019-11-05T03:32:21Z")
Please forward the dealer info to me. I am interested. ---
**Author:** ![Aberneighbor](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/forum.leasehackr.com/aberneighbor/32/11125_2.png) [@Aberneighbor](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Aberneighbor)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 3:08pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7282 "2019-11-05T15:08:05Z")
This looks like an excellent deal! Can you send me the dealer info please! Thank you in advance! ---
**Author:** ![Mpower22](https://leasehackr.b-cdn.net/user_avatar/forum.leasehackr.com/mpower22/32/2414_2.png) [@Mpower22](https://forum.leasehackr.com/u/Mpower22)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2019, 4:44pm UTC](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487/7283 "2019-11-05T16:44:54Z")
Interested in how many miles per month? Can you PM me the dealer? [Previous page](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487.md?page=344) [Next page](https://forum.leasehackr.com/t/off-topic-landfill/39487.md?page=346)